Derren Brown: Archive
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From: marcthomashogan
Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 3:21am
Subject: [Derren Brown] Re: 30 Second Conversational Trance Induction
Hi BC ;-)
This is going to start a interesting thread!
Before I begin, I'd like to point out as I did in my last post, this
is not about Blue Chip or his method, it a vey good overt method
Its my view of the Limitations of the HSI in a persuasion every day
covert context
Its only fair to point out that BC was not talking about Covert
Trance, he was talking about 30 second Conversational Trance
Induction
I prefer conversational trance to be more covert
Lets say in a business meeting,
Where in my opinion it would be impractical to try induce trance to
a group of people using the HSI
I believe Pacing and leading and anchoring would be a more
effective in this situation.
However that is my style and its up to everyone to use the
different methods available
What follow is a very detailed response to BCs reply, covering some
of the covert methods of inducing trance states
My replys are prefixed with :
*****************
> Well I gotta reply to that haven't I?
*********
Yeah and of course so do I!
**********
> Okay first point the question is "How do you know when it has
> worked" the rephrase is deliberate, as your answer was "good
> question, let me talk about something else"...
*********
Yup, I only touch briefly on what does Trance look like, this is
more about the HSI!
*********
> >Hi all
> >
> > >How do you know if you have put someone in trance?
> >
> >This is a good question, and The Hands shake interupt is one
> >method, ( I'll come on to it Later) however, it depends on your
> >meaning of trance ....
> >
> >I mean as you sit there looking at your computer screen, wondering
> >what trance is, curious to know how it works, you'll probably
> >begin to notice the feeling of your clothes on your skin and as
> >you notice, you brgin to smile now that you suddenly realise
> >how easy it is for you to go into trance
> So when I say "think about your clothes touching your skin" I am
> putting you into a trance? Or are you suggesting that while my
> senses are overloaded with the experience of feeling clothes,
> I miss the command " smile now " and that is the point of this
> style of trance?
> OOORRR is it some other thing that your example does not explain?
*************
Yes thats right, its all these things it depends what you view what
trance is - Please read on......
Bandler in Tranceformations says
" if i continue with kinaesthetic statements and then say "And you
can be aware of the sound of people shuffling paper in the room she
will again shift consciousness in order to determine whether my
verbalisation is acurate for her experience. I am feeding back
things that are part of her experience, but are normally outside
of her awareness for her. So I'm buiding rapport and at the same
time I'm already altering her consciousness by that maneuver".....
"Trance is only taking your conscious experiance and altering it to
something else"
This is what my statement does
I mean as you sit there looking at your computer screen,
Pace
wondering what trance is,
Pace
Curious to know how it works,
Pace
you'll probably begin to
Pace
notice the feeling of your clothes on your skin
Lead
and as you notice,
lead
you brgin to smile now
Lead & command
that you suddenly realise how easy it is for you to go into trance
Command
This is the traditional Pace and lead statement that hypnotists use
Now obviously to deepen trance you would continue to pace and
lead ....
************
> >It doesn't have to be a deep sombulistic trance for it to be
> >effective, effective to/for/against WHAT? Thinking about my
> >clothes will not cure allergies!
********
LOL!
True but then again Deep sombulistic Trance does not always cure
allergies!
The point is people see paul Mckenna or Derren and think trance is
when people have their head down and staring vacantly at their
hands, it can be much simpler than that
People go in and out of trance every day one example would be
driving a car from A to B and your thinking about your last holiday
and how good it felt, and how relaaxing it was.....
and sudenly your at your destination but you can't remember any of
the journey...
********
> And I think anybody would spot a person in a somnambulistic trance.
*********
LOL!
I don't know i know a couple of people who go on and on and.....
They never notice that i'm tranced through the floor!!
***********
> >Now for what BC wrote re the Hand Shake Interupt
> > > I find a change in eye-accessing cues is the most obvious
> > > indication.
> > >Yes, you'll also get skin tone changes, breathing changes etc>
> not so obvious to the beginner though
************
True, Calibration is a skill that beginners may not have...
************
> > You will find this an interesting experiment. My own variant
> >on the now popular handshake induction technique.
> >I like the HS interrupt but, i find it fairly useless in the real
> >world as people will think your mad.....
> I see it to be quite helpful, but then people don't consider me to
> be sane anyway.
**********
Lets face who of us on this group aren't all a little mad :-)
**********
> > > Offer hand; look at hand; look at person and say "Hello, how
> > > and include another glimpse to the hand are yo.." and fade off
> > >before the "you" is finished (or whatever words you have chosen
> > > to say)
> >Ok firstly you'll induce confusion, which is fine if you want to
> >do that...
> Well it is kinda the point of the HSI
***********
Yeah , however as I say at the start , my critcism of the HSI is not
in a theraputic or performance sense but out in evey day situations
***********
> >Not so useful if you want to have any type of rapport afterwords
> Hence why it is an induction and not an INTROduction.
> This is NOT .a good technique for a salesman, but works well
> amongst friends - which is, after all, where this guy is most
> likely to be practising.
*************
Yes i'm glad we agree on that! ;-}
True he is likely to practice on friends but u did'nt state that
originally, who knows who hes trying it on right now!!
Also to improve his callibration and rapport skills which I believe
are fundamental in trance (which we mentioned above)
Conversational trance methods such as the pace and lead are amuch
more gentle way for him to learn without being overt
*************
> QOTD: "Reply to the person who presented the question" Dave Lyons
> > > The aim is to get the timing so that the handshake WOULD
> > > naturally start at the end of the sentence - but the sentence
> > > never quite ends ... and the hands never quite get round to
> > > meeting.
> >this again will make you look weird.....
> Hopefully - that'll be another cognitive path taken up. The art
will be in making them forget it happened...
********
Yes, if you can achieve amnesia, and amnesia is one of the most
interesting Trance phenomonons.
*********
> > > The "fade off" is achieved by pretending that you have just
> > > gone into a trance yourself - you know, let your eyes
> > > defocus, let your shoulders drop a little, lower your
> > > breathing rate -literally pretend to have just gone off into a
> > >trance.
> >DON'T PRETEND TO GO INTO TRANCE - JUST GO INTO TRANCE !!!!!
> The word "pretend" was by no means an accident. I stand by it.
> But reasoning is long winded and off-topic for now.
**********
Well, I'm not sure what your reason is, but the model of hypnosis
that was taught to me and that I teach, is one of state contol that
if you pace a persons state and then go into state you will lead
them into state ie Trance.....
**********
> > > As you do this, they will almost invariably continue to match
> > > your body language and go into a trance themselves. After a
> > > second-or- so (sorry for the ambiguity, but you will
> > > appreciate it after you have got it to work)
> >Again this is fine if you are performing,
> or running a little experiment to find out what a trance looks like
*********
Again this is fine if you want to be overt, I prefer the pace and
lead state approach
**********
> >But this is no use in everyday situations, how many times will you
> >have to practice this to get it right?
>four or five personally
*********
Again this is fine, I have used The HSI many times myself
the criticism is that 4 or 5 attempts in any social situation may
not be appropriate - but I'll take your point about practicing with
friends
**********
> >How many people will think your weird?
> None, the memory is made irrelevant. You should know all about
> this Mark, given what your advertising claims.
*********
Cheap shot I stand by everything I say in my "advertising",
And I personally don't believe the memory is irrelavent, it may be
with friends, but I believe with acomplete stranger who you are
meeting for the 1st Time and thus shaking their hand and going into
the HSI they will rember and find it strange.
***************
> I think you stand a much better chance of getting someone to
> forget that you "wandered off for a second" than you have of
> getting and employer with 50 CVs on his desk to forget that the
> has other applicants for the job.
**********
I believe this is what you are referring too?
6. Instant Forgetfulness and How to Remember?
Is there something you always forget? Your keys, your wallet,
peoples names....now if you can remember that you can forget can you
allow others to forget to remember!
Confused?
What if you could cause;
An interviewer forget the other candidates
A customer to forget your competitor
Believe me amnesia is a powerful persuasion tool
Where do I mention 50 CVs?
I'm talking about the subtle art of creating amnesia in an interview
situation
************
>I am "fascinated" by your "outrageous claims." But not yet
> prepared to dismiss them.
************
Another Cheap Shot,
Many people may believe they are "outrageous claims"
However the people who have taught me these skills and the people I
have tauught find thes skills quite natural and true
I have'nt claimed that you'll become "a millionaire" or "worlds
greatest lover"
My techniues are based around genuine NLP patterns applied to the
persuasion context.
And these pattens have been taught to me and man others by many NLP
Trainers
Its good to know you can't dismiss them , because like any skill if
you practice and gain feedback you will acquire these skills
************
> > >Let your sight slowly come back, so that you feel in control,
> > > whilst maintaining ALL other indications that you are in a
> > > trance.
> >BC You can be in trance without having cross eyes!!
> Can you!? Cool - I'll practice.
***********
LOL - thats what its all about
***********
>
> However, pulling my comment back into context again.
> If you followed the above instructions, then you would realise
> that at this point your eyes are defocussed, so letting
> your 'sight come back' is a very valid stage of this specific
> example.
**********
That was a joke BC, however to induce trance even in your model you
do not have to defocus your eyes - see my above statement about
leading with state
************
> It is a shame that you dismissed the idea right from the word go -
> I'm sure you would have found it more insightful if you had not.
***********
I did not dismiss it, I have used various versions of The HSI with
great sucess, as I have said I don't believe its very good in
everyday situations, this is just my opinion, I prefer pace and lead
************
> > > Maintaining the eye contact, slowly remove your hand from the
> > > equation and DO NOTHING.
> > > You will be amazed how long people are prepared to stand there
> > > with their hand in front of them doing nothing.
> >Thats because they are totally cofused?
> They are struggling for the correct way to respond - is that your
> definition of confusion?
**********
Its one definition
***********
> >And If you have'nt got it right, they'll either
> >a) Run away
> >b) Hit you
> I kinda cover this later - as I say, don't try this at work
> Mark.
> This is something you HAVE to get right if you are going to apply
> it to sales, and even then it won't work on everybody all the time.
*************
Yes, that statement was intended as a joke, but as you say its
something you have to get right, there are less overt methods for
getting trance phenomonon
**************
> BUT This IS a simple way to discover WHAT DOES A TRANCE LOOK LIKE?
*********
Again This comes down to what is trance, I believe that if you
change their state you can notice what trance looks like without the
need for the HSI
**************
> For interest, of my friends who helped me develop this art, None
> of them Ran Away and None of the Hit Me.
> I did get a couple of "Are you alright??!!" comments though.
*********
Agin in the right context the HSI is perfectly viable, I am going
to stick with my opinion about its use with strangers in evey day
situations
**********
> Gave them an apparently valid reason why it happened and it has
> never been discussed since.
> There are other interesting stories about HSI in THIS archive.
**********
Yes and there is nothing wrong with The HSI in the right context!
*******************
> >You'll have no rapport which is where all influence is!
> "Sorry mate, I wandered off. I'm not sure where it was, but there
>was sunshine and music, anyway, about that P4 you wanted..." -
>and that's as close as I am getting to the dark side.
*********
Come on BC Rapport is a fundamental concept in NLP tems for
persuasion.
I'm not sure what your trying to achieve with that statement
******************
> > > They will often go completely cataleptic
> >So all you've done is induced caltylepsy
> is that a statement or a question?
***********
Its Both, and yes it is one observable trance phenomonon, which I
presume was your point, however again you can observe breathing, and
skin tone etc in a much more covert way
****************
> >- if you just hold their arm tight you'll achive the same
effect!!
> Then why didn;t you say that.
**********
Its a joke
*********
> How can you tell if someone is in a trance.... Hold their arm
> really tight hmm, doesn't work for me, but then my idea doesn't
> work for you, this only goes to prove that there is no ONE method
> that will work for everybody.
********
Again its a joke re catalypsy
By the way I notice that you say "my idea doesn't work for you"
I hope i've made it clear that there is nothing wrong with
your "idea".
And I'm sure it creates trance when correctly carried out
I Like The HSI in certain situations, but as I've stated not in
everyday social situations where I want to be covert
You are right re there is no one method, that will work for
everybody.
As we have said you have to decide what suits u and what doesn't and
then practice and use
I hope that this goes the same for you when foriming pre-opinions
about the Persuasion Skills Seminar.....
*************
>
> > > To terminate the effect simply say something like "sorry, I
> > > wandered off there for a moment..." and now with fresh
> > > confidence "How are you?" and shake their hand.
> >Again this process is completely Overt,
> uh huh
********
I'm glad we agree about that!
**************
> >Not to mention overly difficult
> Only if compared with something that is easier, but as you are
> offering no alternatives, I guess the guy is stuck with this one
> idea!
*********
I hope my pace and lead method is an alternative
********
> > - they'll know you are doing someting.
> Who cares, so long as they don't remember it.
**********
Again you better make sure yo've created amnesia, which in this
scenario i'm not convinced, however that does not mean that you have
not induced it.
**************
> >And they will probably be scared of you for the rest of their
> >lives
> You must be an incredibly overbearing person if you can illicit
> those types of reactions. I don't threaten people to the point
>of being scared of me (apart from my sisters boyfriends.)
***********
I'm going to take this as a joke, as my original comment was intended
************
> It is important that one is GENTLE with this method. Use it
> exactly as describedat first; the first part of adopt, adapt and
> improve is adopt.
**********
Yeah, i completely agree
**********
>Bandler will teach you of the suspension of disbelief - this is a
>skill you must master if you are to include new ideas to your old
>ways.
************
As i have said i'm not critiqing your method, its perfectly viable
in certain contexts in certain situations
I've spent along time suspending disbelief, to master new ideas, and
I continue to do so
One hopes you are doing so when expressoing your opinions
about "Outrageous Claims":-)
***************
>
> > - which is fine if you are Derren Brown or a Hypnotherapist
>
> Excellent, so you are comparing me with DB - I am flattered :-)
> ...Now I KNOW I should spend more time with this idea... ;)
*********
LOL
********
> > > You should not wait too long or they will wonder what the f' is
> > > wrong with you - and often become a little aggitated - not a
> > >good outcome.
> >LOL!!! BC I enjoy are private chats
> "Some strange use of the word 'private' with which I was not
previously aware" Arthur Dent! lol
************
Referencing your statements in previous private emails :-)
************
> >- you are the master of understatement!!
> I have other useful skills as well ;)
*******
I have no doubt about that!
*******
> > > The cue of "too long" will be the moment they perform an
> > >access.
> > > As they go for it, you step in with your apology.
> > > Lest they have an independant thought - tut tut tut that
> > > would never do {never do what to whom?}
> >Thats a funny comment,
> It was not intended as such - any form of trance effectively
removes free will.
********
I disagree with that
Trance causes Increased suggestability it not the same
as "effectively removes free will"
I believe that with Trance you can help persuade people to your way
of thinking.
However, it is a person in front of you.
In my model its about using NLP to form relationships that are
mutualy beneficial.
Thats one of my main persuasion skills principals,
If you screw some-one over, you'll eventaully get screwed over
yourself - what goes around comes around!
PS this is not a criticism of Your HSI method at all
This is my general belief re Trance / NLP.
************
> > however thats a person in front of you, you
> >can induce trance naturally and easily without scary commands
> >and "Hypnovoice" "!
>
> Absolutely, that is why I did not use either of these in my
>example.
*********
Fair point I should have been more specific, not only can u induce
trance withou the above, u do'nt need overt methods, but that just
mu particlar thing. Overt Methods of inducing trance are perfecly
good in certain situations
***********
> > > By doing this. You will soon know what someone in a trance
> > > looks like.
> >Maybe, however its more likely that youu see someone who looks
> >a)Confused
> >b)Pissed Off
> You really haven't managed to get this to work for you??
> It really is as simple as I make it sound!
**********
As I have said I have performed many successful variations of the
HSI.
It is not my favourite method as I have said in situations where you
want to be covert
ie. in a group situation where you cannot use the HSI to induce
trance in 5 people that you've just met it- this is just my opinion!
As you have said that was not your intention you were just detailing
your method, I hope this reply shows that no offence was meant!
***************
> >BC there is nothing wrong with this process, and this is not a
> >criticism of you :- ))it is a criticism of The Hand Shake
Interupt In General
> >I'm not saying it won't work, but after 10 years of experience in
> >hypnosis & NLP there are much more elegant and precise ways to
> >induce covert waking trance
> Are you going to share any of them with us HERE? I'm guessing
> not. Go on prove me wrong if you dare.
*********
I hope my response has answered your challenge.
I am going to cover covert trance in much more detail in my seminar,
I hope what is here will suffice for now
If not i'll see you on the 1st;)
*************
I would be intrigued to open my email and read
> a full in depth analysis of a "less overly difficult" method.
*******
My method is less overt, whether is "less overly difficult" I'll
leave that to you!
***********
> >Keep Safe
>
> Brilliant arguing with you, as ever :-)
*********
I hope this is the last one this has taken hours to reply to!
**********
>
> I look forward to seeing which bits of my email you do not reply
to...
***********
I think I've replied to everything
*************
Keep Safe
Mark
www.persuasion-skills.co.uk
Persuasion Skills "The Magic of Persuasion Seminar" Sat 1st Feb 2003
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