Derren Brown: Archive
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From: Blue Chip
Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 11:59pm
Subject: Re: 30 Second Conversational Trance Induction
At 03:21 09/01/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi BC ;-)
>
>This is going to start a interesting thread!
I hope so. That's kinda the life-blood of a public forum :)
>Before I begin, I'd like to point out as I did in my last post, this
>is not about Blue Chip or his method, it a vey good overt method
I have no idea what is to follow, but yes, likewise, this should be a
debate about an issue, not about people.
>Its my view of the Limitations of the HSI in a persuasion every day
>covert context
>
>Its only fair to point out that BC was not talking about Covert
>Trance, he was talking about 30 second Conversational Trance
>Induction
>
>I prefer conversational trance to be more covert
That word... "covert", I love it - that sells the idea all on it's
own. Without considering what it means, you kind of instinctively like
it. "Overt" sounds so much less interesting. One suggests "surprise
birthday party" the other suggests "unwrapped presents".
>Lets say in a business meeting,
>
>Where in my opinion it would be impractical to try induce trance to
>a group of people using the HSI
>
>I believe Pacing and leading and anchoring would be a more
>effective in this situation.
>
>However that is my style and its up to everyone to use the
>different methods available
>
>What follow is a very detailed response to BCs reply, covering some
>of the covert methods of inducing trance states
>
>My replys are prefixed with :
>*****************
Hmmm, has it got that messy. Shame we can't embed colour on this group :(
Okay then, I will also continue with, ummmm, %%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > Well I gotta reply to that haven't I?
>*********
> Yeah and of course so do I!
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Touché
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > Okay first point the question is "How do you know when it has
> > worked" the rephrase is deliberate, as your answer was "good
> > question, let me talk about something else"...
>*********
>Yup, I only touch briefly on what does Trance look like, this is
>more about the HSI!
>*********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
okay, i accept that reframe :)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >Hi all
> > >
> > > >How do you know if you have put someone in trance?
> > >
> > >This is a good question, and The Hands shake interupt is one
> > >method, ( I'll come on to it Later) however, it depends on your
> > >meaning of trance ....
> > >
> > >I mean as you sit there looking at your computer screen, wondering
> > >what trance is, curious to know how it works, you'll probably
> > >begin to notice the feeling of your clothes on your skin and as
> > >you notice, you brgin to smile now that you suddenly realise
> > >how easy it is for you to go into trance
>
>
> > So when I say "think about your clothes touching your skin" I am
> > putting you into a trance? Or are you suggesting that while my
> > senses are overloaded with the experience of feeling clothes,
> > I miss the command " smile now " and that is the point of this
> > style of trance?
> > OOORRR is it some other thing that your example does not explain?
>
>
>*************
>Yes thats right, its all these things it depends what you view what
>trance is - Please read on......
>
>Bandler in Tranceformations says
>
>" if i continue with kinaesthetic statements and then say "And you
>can be aware of the sound of people shuffling paper in the room she
>will again shift consciousness in order to determine whether my
>verbalisation is acurate for her experience. I am feeding back
>things that are part of her experience, but are normally outside
>of her awareness for her. So I'm buiding rapport and at the same
>time I'm already altering her consciousness by that maneuver".....
>
>"Trance is only taking your conscious experiance and altering it to
>something else"
>
>This is what my statement does
>
>I mean as you sit there looking at your computer screen,
>Pace
>
>wondering what trance is,
>Pace
>
>Curious to know how it works,
>Pace
>
>you'll probably begin to
>Pace
>
>
>notice the feeling of your clothes on your skin
>Lead
>
>and as you notice,
>lead
>
>you brgin to smile now
>
>Lead & command
>
>that you suddenly realise how easy it is for you to go into trance
>
>Command
>
>
>This is the traditional Pace and lead statement that hypnotists use
>
>Now obviously to deepen trance you would continue to pace and
>lead ....
>************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Well explained :)
That makes sense.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >It doesn't have to be a deep sombulistic trance for it to be
> > >effective, effective to/for/against WHAT? Thinking about my
> > >clothes will not cure allergies!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Is it not "somnambulistic"? typo, mis-spelling or different word?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>********
>LOL!
>
>True but then again Deep sombulistic Trance does not always cure
>allergies!
>
>The point is people see paul Mckenna or Derren and think trance is
>when people have their head down and staring vacantly at their
>hands, it can be much simpler than that
>
>People go in and out of trance every day one example would be
>driving a car from A to B and your thinking about your last holiday
>and how good it felt, and how relaaxing it was.....
>
>and sudenly your at your destination but you can't remember any of
>the journey...
>********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
So you're measuring trance by the current level of introversion??
It is interesting to read that definition.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > And I think anybody would spot a person in a somnambulistic trance.
>
>*********
>LOL!
>I don't know i know a couple of people who go on and on and.....
>
>They never notice that i'm tranced through the floor!!
>***********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
LOL
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >Now for what BC wrote re the Hand Shake Interupt
>
> > > > I find a change in eye-accessing cues is the most obvious
> > > > indication.
> > > >Yes, you'll also get skin tone changes, breathing changes etc>
>
> > not so obvious to the beginner though
>
>************
>True, Calibration is a skill that beginners may not have...
>************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Calibration", interesting use of the word. Surely you need to calibrate
to the subject?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > > You will find this an interesting experiment. My own variant
> > >on the now popular handshake induction technique.
>
> > >I like the HS interrupt but, i find it fairly useless in the real
> > >world as people will think your mad.....
>
> > I see it to be quite helpful, but then people don't consider me to
> > be sane anyway.
>
>**********
>Lets face who of us on this group aren't all a little mad :-)
>**********
>
> > > > Offer hand; look at hand; look at person and say "Hello, how
> > > > and include another glimpse to the hand are yo.." and fade off
> > > >before the "you" is finished (or whatever words you have chosen
> > > > to say)
>
> > >Ok firstly you'll induce confusion, which is fine if you want to
> > >do that...
>
> > Well it is kinda the point of the HSI
>
>***********
>Yeah , however as I say at the start , my critcism of the HSI is not
>in a theraputic or performance sense but out in evey day situations
>***********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
On which note we agree :)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >Not so useful if you want to have any type of rapport afterwords
>
> > Hence why it is an induction and not an INTROduction.
> > This is NOT .a good technique for a salesman, but works well
> > amongst friends - which is, after all, where this guy is most
> > likely to be practising.
>
>
>*************
>Yes i'm glad we agree on that! ;-}
>
>True he is likely to practice on friends but u did'nt state that
>originally, who knows who hes trying it on right now!!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
hmm, yes, I kinda just _assumed_ that someone wouldn't practice this stuff
on complete strangers.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>Also to improve his callibration and rapport skills which I believe
>are fundamental in trance (which we mentioned above)
>
>Conversational trance methods such as the pace and lead are amuch
>more gentle way for him to learn without being overt
>*************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I would say "why? is overt bad?" but I know your answer to that. Overt
means you can't do it secretly - and getting caught is being portrayed as a
bad thing (rather than feedback on your technique.)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > QOTD: "Reply to the person who presented the question" Dave Lyons
>
> > > > The aim is to get the timing so that the handshake WOULD
> > > > naturally start at the end of the sentence - but the sentence
> > > > never quite ends ... and the hands never quite get round to
> > > > meeting.
>
> > >this again will make you look weird.....
>
> > Hopefully - that'll be another cognitive path taken up. The art
>will be in making them forget it happened...
>
>********
>Yes, if you can achieve amnesia, and amnesia is one of the most
>interesting Trance phenomonons.
>*********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Isn't it just >:)
But it is something we all do every day without even realising it ;)
Next time you can't remember something (maybe in a conversation) - go back
and work out what you CAN remember - this is most likely what caused the
loss, and often the tool to bring it back.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > > > The "fade off" is achieved by pretending that you have just
> > > > gone into a trance yourself - you know, let your eyes
> > > > defocus, let your shoulders drop a little, lower your
> > > > breathing rate -literally pretend to have just gone off into a
> > > >trance.
>
> > >DON'T PRETEND TO GO INTO TRANCE - JUST GO INTO TRANCE !!!!!
>
> > The word "pretend" was by no means an accident. I stand by it.
> > But reasoning is long winded and off-topic for now.
>
>**********
>Well, I'm not sure what your reason is, but the model of hypnosis
>that was taught to me and that I teach, is one of state contol that
>if you pace a persons state and then go into state you will lead
>them into state ie Trance.....
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
With brevity:
Yes, exactly what you just said. But, you do not want to end up in the
'out-of-control' state that you hope to leave them in.
Now, the subconcious does not understand the differnce between Pretend and
Real, but the concious mind does. By 'actively "pretending"', you anchor
your concious mind to the state of pretending, whilst ensuring that the
subconcious carries out the instruction. This way you will find it easier
to step out of the state, whilst maintaining the facade that you have
not. This way, they will be matching what you have told them is the state
without having to commit to that state yourself.
Make sense?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > > > As you do this, they will almost invariably continue to match
> > > > your body language and go into a trance themselves. After a
> > > > second-or- so (sorry for the ambiguity, but you will
> > > > appreciate it after you have got it to work)
>
> > >Again this is fine if you are performing,
>
> > or running a little experiment to find out what a trance looks like
>
>*********
>Again this is fine if you want to be overt, I prefer the pace and
>lead state approach
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Fair enough, each to his own.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >But this is no use in everyday situations, how many times will you
> > >have to practice this to get it right?
>
> >four or five personally
>
>*********
>Again this is fine, I have used The HSI many times myself
>the criticism is that 4 or 5 attempts in any social situation may
>not be appropriate - but I'll take your point about practicing with
>friends
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
No, no, NOT four or five times every night. Just a one-off payment.
And my explained method is -with friends- pretty much where I started
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >How many people will think your weird?
>
> > None, the memory is made irrelevant. You should know all about
> > this Mark, given what your advertising claims.
>
>
>*********
>Cheap shot I stand by everything I say in my "advertising",
>
>And I personally don't believe the memory is irrelavent, it may be
>with friends, but I believe with acomplete stranger who you are
>meeting for the 1st Time and thus shaking their hand and going into
>the HSI they will rember and find it strange.
>***************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You emailed me off board and asked me to give you opportunities to pedal
your wares. You were quite persistent - and now that I (once again) draw
attention to your advert and the claims made there you tell me I'm taking a
cheap shot. Meh!? Without proof, everything is just a claim or opinon to
a scientist or indeed anyone with an analytical mind.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > I think you stand a much better chance of getting someone to
> > forget that you "wandered off for a second" than you have of
> > getting and employer with 50 CVs on his desk to forget that the
> > has other applicants for the job.
>
>**********
>I believe this is what you are referring too?
>
>6. Instant Forgetfulness and How to Remember?
>
>Is there something you always forget? Your keys, your wallet,
>peoples names....now if you can remember that you can forget can you
>allow others to forget to remember!
>
>Confused?
>
>What if you could cause;
>An interviewer forget the other candidates
>A customer to forget your competitor
>
>Believe me amnesia is a powerful persuasion tool
>
>Where do I mention 50 CVs?
>
>I'm talking about the subtle art of creating amnesia in an interview
>situation
>************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Oh dear. You ARE upset.
Well, first of all let me offer you the courtesy or replying to your
question. "Nowhere." Nowhere do you refer to 50 CVs. But then nowhere do
you say the interviewer is wearing clothes. With the job market and the
indecent exposure laws that are around today, neither are unreasonable
presumptions about an interview situation.
I appreciate that you like "subtle" that is very obvious by your attitude
to the HSI, but our amnesia element is likely to be quite similar in
concept. I will let you judge that - you have not spoken publicly of your
amnesia-provoking techniques, so I/we cannot form our own opinions of your
claims.
Making a customer forget about Macs while you flog him a PC is one thing -
you have his money before he leaves the store. But I still find the
suggestion that an interviewer can be made to just forget all the other
candidates quite remarkable. Maybe you mean, he will forget about them
whilst you answer an unfavourable question? All I can do is hypothesize
around your general elusiveness.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> >I am "fascinated" by your "outrageous claims." But not yet
> > prepared to dismiss them.
>
>************
>Another Cheap Shot,
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Note to self: Don't use trancewords with this man, he doesn't like them.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>Many people may believe they are "outrageous claims"
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Well, you've got an explanation of this in reply to your private
chewing-out email, so I won't bore the DB readers with any more than: read
the foreword in Frogs into Princes - where they use this very expression to
drive intrigue into the unintiated.
Foolishly trying to help again. D'oh
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>However the people who have taught me these skills and the people I
>have tauught find thes skills quite natural and true
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Hence why they were not dismissed!?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>I have'nt claimed that you'll become "a millionaire" or "worlds
>greatest lover"
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
but you have claimed to "cause an interviewer forget the other candidates"
PERMANENTLY?? If not, then for how long?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>My techniues are based around genuine NLP patterns applied to the
>persuasion context.
>
>And these pattens have been taught to me and man others by many NLP
>Trainers
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
More claims, no evidence.
If you want to convice me, and others who think like me, then as I said in
my last post, you're gonna need to be able to back it up with at least a
minimalistic amount of evidence - and bear in mind that when we do opt for
minimal info answers, intelligent people get inquisitive or bored. If that
is your intention, then all well and good. If not, then either change the
audience or change the presentation.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>Its good to know you can't dismiss them , because like any skill if
>you practice and gain feedback you will acquire these skills
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I know I CAN dismiss them. I CHOOSE not to. Without proof one way or the
other what would be my basis of decision other than disinterest?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>************
> > > >Let your sight slowly come back, so that you feel in control,
> > > > whilst maintaining ALL other indications that you are in a
> > > > trance.
>
> > >BC You can be in trance without having cross eyes!!
>
> > Can you!? Cool - I'll practice.
>
>***********
>LOL - thats what its all about
>***********
> >
> > However, pulling my comment back into context again.
> > If you followed the above instructions, then you would realise
> > that at this point your eyes are defocussed, so letting
> > your 'sight come back' is a very valid stage of this specific
> > example.
>
>
>**********
>That was a joke BC, however to induce trance even in your model you
>do not have to defocus your eyes - see my above statement about
>leading with state
>************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You'd been attacking my writing for a while there. I missed the humour break!
I appreciate that you do not NEED to do ANY of the particular ideas I
suggested, but you have taken a concept a broken it down by the words I
chose to describe it. Maybe I should have chosen different words - or just
kept all my insights to myself?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > It is a shame that you dismissed the idea right from the word go -
> > I'm sure you would have found it more insightful if you had not.
>
>***********
>I did not dismiss it, I have used various versions of The HSI with
>great sucess, as I have said I don't believe its very good in
>everyday situations, this is just my opinion, I prefer pace and lead
>************
>
>
> > > > Maintaining the eye contact, slowly remove your hand from the
> > > > equation and DO NOTHING.
>
> > > > You will be amazed how long people are prepared to stand there
> > > > with their hand in front of them doing nothing.
>
> > >Thats because they are totally cofused?
>
> > They are struggling for the correct way to respond - is that your
> > definition of confusion?
>
>**********
>Its one definition
>***********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I know, but the question was "is it YOURS?"
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
SHHHHHIIIIIIITTTTTTT - only half way down - LOL - Is ANYONE still reading?
> > >And If you have'nt got it right, they'll either
> > >a) Run away
> > >b) Hit you
>
> > I kinda cover this later - as I say, don't try this at work
> > Mark.
>
> > This is something you HAVE to get right if you are going to apply
> > it to sales, and even then it won't work on everybody all the time.
>
>*************
>Yes, that statement was intended as a joke, but as you say its
>something you have to get right, there are less overt methods for
>getting trance phenomonon
>**************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I'm sure, but unless someone spills the beans, they ain't gonna be a lot of
use to use here.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > BUT This IS a simple way to discover WHAT DOES A TRANCE LOOK LIKE?
>
>*********
>Again This comes down to what is trance, I believe that if you
>change their state you can notice what trance looks like without the
>need for the HSI
>**************
>
> > For interest, of my friends who helped me develop this art, None
> > of them Ran Away and None of the Hit Me.
>
> > I did get a couple of "Are you alright??!!" comments though.
>
>*********
>Agin in the right context the HSI is perfectly viable, I am going
>to stick with my opinion about its use with strangers in evey day
>situations
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Agreed.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > Gave them an apparently valid reason why it happened and it has
> > never been discussed since.
>
> > There are other interesting stories about HSI in THIS archive.
>
>**********
>Yes and there is nothing wrong with The HSI in the right context!
>*******************
>
> > >You'll have no rapport which is where all influence is!
>
> > "Sorry mate, I wandered off. I'm not sure where it was, but there
> >was sunshine and music, anyway, about that P4 you wanted..." -
> >and that's as close as I am getting to the dark side.
>
>*********
>Come on BC Rapport is a fundamental concept in NLP tems for
>persuasion.
>
>I'm not sure what your trying to achieve with that statement
>******************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
To show that you can come out of this example HSI with good rapport and a
positive anchor to boot.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > > > They will often go completely cataleptic
>
> > >So all you've done is induced caltylepsy
>
> > is that a statement or a question?
>
>***********
>Its Both, and yes it is one observable trance phenomonon, which I
>presume was your point, however again you can observe breathing, and
>skin tone etc in a much more covert way
>****************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Well, when I hear your ideas, I will try them. But until then we're still
left with little more than your word for it.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >- if you just hold their arm tight you'll achive the same
>effect!!
>
> > Then why didn;t you say that.
>
>**********
>Its a joke
>*********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Oh! You really should make it clearer for those of us in the back
row. Add a smiley or two - works for me :-)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > How can you tell if someone is in a trance.... Hold their arm
> > really tight hmm, doesn't work for me, but then my idea doesn't
> > work for you, this only goes to prove that there is no ONE method
> > that will work for everybody.
>
>********
>Again its a joke re catalypsy
>
>By the way I notice that you say "my idea doesn't work for you"
>
>I hope i've made it clear that there is nothing wrong with
>your "idea".
>
>And I'm sure it creates trance when correctly carried out
>
>I Like The HSI in certain situations, but as I've stated not in
>everyday social situations where I want to be covert
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
It was not proposed as a thing to do to people in every day situations.
It was designed to answer the question "how can i tell... <blah blah>"
{getting bored of repeating myself now - I can't believe than anyone is
still reading this}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>You are right re there is no one method, that will work for
>everybody.
>
>As we have said you have to decide what suits u and what doesn't and
>then practice and use
>
>I hope that this goes the same for you when foriming pre-opinions
>about the Persuasion Skills Seminar.....
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
IN WITH THE ADVERT
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
People, are you modelling this persuasion technique yet?
Like a commercial advert - repetition, repetition, repetitition <sic>
...Now is that a crisiticism or a compliment to the way you see your technique?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>*************
> >
> > > > To terminate the effect simply say something like "sorry, I
> > > > wandered off there for a moment..." and now with fresh
> > > > confidence "How are you?" and shake their hand.
>
> > >Again this process is completely Overt,
>
> > uh huh
>
>********
>I'm glad we agree about that!
>**************
>
> > >Not to mention overly difficult
>
> > Only if compared with something that is easier, but as you are
> > offering no alternatives, I guess the guy is stuck with this one
> > idea!
>
>*********
>I hope my pace and lead method is an alternative
>********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Indeed, and well explained. Maybe when you reply (as I'm sure you will)
you can fill in a little more detail, like what skin tone and breathing
changes we should be expecting
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > > - they'll know you are doing someting.
>
> > Who cares, so long as they don't remember it.
>
>**********
>Again you better make sure yo've created amnesia, which in this
>scenario i'm not convinced, however that does not mean that you have
>not induced it.
>**************
>
> > >And they will probably be scared of you for the rest of their
> > >lives
>
> > You must be an incredibly overbearing person if you can illicit
> > those types of reactions. I don't threaten people to the point
> >of being scared of me (apart from my sisters boyfriends.)
>
>***********
>I'm going to take this as a joke, as my original comment was intended
>************
>
> > It is important that one is GENTLE with this method. Use it
> > exactly as describedat first; the first part of adopt, adapt and
> > improve is adopt.
>
>**********
>Yeah, i completely agree
>**********
>
> >Bandler will teach you of the suspension of disbelief - this is a
> >skill you must master if you are to include new ideas to your old
> >ways.
>
>************
>As i have said i'm not critiqing your method, its perfectly viable
>in certain contexts in certain situations
>
>I've spent along time suspending disbelief, to master new ideas, and
>I continue to do so
>
>One hopes you are doing so when expressoing your opinions
>about "Outrageous Claims":-)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I belive that I stated that I had done - in the same sentence, no less.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>***************
> >
> > > - which is fine if you are Derren Brown or a Hypnotherapist
> >
> > Excellent, so you are comparing me with DB - I am flattered :-)
> > ...Now I KNOW I should spend more time with this idea... ;)
>
>*********
>LOL
>********
> > > > You should not wait too long or they will wonder what the f' is
> > > > wrong with you - and often become a little aggitated - not a
> > > >good outcome.
>
> > >LOL!!! BC I enjoy are private chats
>
> > "Some strange use of the word 'private' with which I was not
>previously aware" Arthur Dent! lol
>
>************
>Referencing your statements in previous private emails :-)
>************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
okay, think I missed the link, perhaps I will look through our off-board
conversation and try to ascertain where that link came from. <looks baffled>
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >- you are the master of understatement!!
>
> > I have other useful skills as well ;)
>
>*******
>I have no doubt about that!
>*******
>
> > > > The cue of "too long" will be the moment they perform an
> > > >access.
> > > > As they go for it, you step in with your apology.
> > > > Lest they have an independant thought - tut tut tut that
> > > > would never do {never do what to whom?}
>
> > >Thats a funny comment,
>
> > It was not intended as such - any form of trance effectively
>removes free will.
>
>********
>I disagree with that
>
>Trance causes Increased suggestability it not the same
>as "effectively removes free will"
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"effectively" as in "the upshot is" rather than "it is good at it"
and "suggestible" is a character trait of those who exhibit little
independant thought.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>I believe that with Trance you can help persuade people to your way
>of thinking.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Yes, replace their will with yours.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>However, it is a person in front of you.
>
>In my model its about using NLP to form relationships that are
>mutualy beneficial.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You must appreciate those words will always be met with skepticism by the
intellect.
Mutually Beneficial are 'Hard Sale' words in my dictionary. They
themselves attempt to remove my doubts and replace them with your
security. Replace my will with yours. So now it is time to "Question
Authority" - in what way is <this> relationship beneficial to each person.
Let ME decide whether it is _truly_ mutual.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>Thats one of my main persuasion skills principals,
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
And a good one at that ;)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>If you screw some-one over, you'll eventaully get screwed over
>yourself - what goes around comes around!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's Karma. "You can't buy Karma, it's portioned out by the cosmos"
Homer Simpson
Also, "If you write 'welcome' on your back, people will walk on you." Me!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>PS this is not a criticism of Your HSI method at all
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
No, not at all. I get the idea we've moved on from that - which is good -
cos it was all starting to go nowhere (for me).
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>This is my general belief re Trance / NLP.
>************
>
> > > however thats a person in front of you, you
> > >can induce trance naturally and easily without scary commands
> > >and "Hypnovoice" "!
>
> > Absolutely, that is why I did not use either of these in my
> >example.
>
>*********
>Fair point I should have been more specific, not only can u induce
>trance withou the above, u do'nt need overt methods, but that just
>mu particlar thing. Overt Methods of inducing trance are perfecly
>good in certain situations
>***********
>
> > > > By doing this. You will soon know what someone in a trance
> > > > looks like.
>
> > >Maybe, however its more likely that youu see someone who looks
> > >a)Confused
> > >b)Pissed Off
>
> > You really haven't managed to get this to work for you??
> > It really is as simple as I make it sound!
>
>**********
>As I have said I have performed many successful variations of the
>HSI.
>
>It is not my favourite method as I have said in situations where you
>want to be covert
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Agreed, but as an "overt" method, it kinda precludes iteself from that area
anyway.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>ie. in a group situation where you cannot use the HSI to induce
>trance in 5 people that you've just met it- this is just my opinion!
>As you have said that was not your intention you were just detailing
>your method, I hope this reply shows that no offence was meant!
>***************
>
> > >BC there is nothing wrong with this process, and this is not a
> > >criticism of you :- ))it is a criticism of The Hand Shake
>Interupt In General
>
>
> > >I'm not saying it won't work, but after 10 years of experience in
> > >hypnosis & NLP there are much more elegant and precise ways to
> > >induce covert waking trance
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Well very different than "more elegant". A covert method is not an elegant
overt method
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > Are you going to share any of them with us HERE? I'm guessing
> > not. Go on prove me wrong if you dare.
>
>*********
>I hope my response has answered your challenge.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Certainly a well explained starting point - and after all there are fewer
places that are better to start from :)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>I am going to cover covert trance in much more detail in my seminar,
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Of that I have little doubt
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>I hope what is here will suffice for now
>
>If not i'll see you on the 1st;)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I get the impression that I would probably be more "inspirational" that you
would like. It may be better if we don't come - I'm sure you appreciate my
position; our methods are terribly tangential and we do not communicate
well with each other because of it. I will allow more breathing space for
those who's attitudes are more in line with your own.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>*************
>
>I would be intrigued to open my email and read
> > a full in depth analysis of a "less overly difficult" method.
>
>*******
>My method is less overt, whether is "less overly difficult" I'll
>leave that to you!
>***********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Who makes the decision on whether it was an "in-depth analysis"? ;)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > >Keep Safe
> >
> > Brilliant arguing with you, as ever :-)
>
>*********
>I hope this is the last one this has taken hours to reply to!
>**********
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Yes it has been a fun couple of hours here too.
But as you are hoping this is the end I shall bid you a fair well.
--> Gratuitous Advertising Follows <--
Good luck with the seminar, hope it pays off for you (and others, of course) :)
^^ One Advert, three puns ^^
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > I look forward to seeing which bits of my email you do not reply
>to...
>
>***********
>I think I've replied to everything
>*************
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Me too - anybody else still here???
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>Keep Safe
>
>
>Mark
>
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
All adverts below this point erased....
Greetz go out to anybody who is still here - LOL
Bc
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
